Stage48 Wiki - Organization & Discussion

If i can allowed to created Studio48 movie articles at Wiki48?
http://www.studio48.cn/index.php?m=&c=videos&a=index&type=1

 

Yes, u can


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Absolutely agree. I was so confused when I saw Renacchi's page. It's so strange how we're adding all the 'u's when they never use it themselves.

 

Girls are definitely not to be believed in this regard - an aggravated case is Kikkawa You, whose name is actually read as ゆう, not よう.

 

When I visited the AKB48 Cafe and Shop last month I noticed that Tomu's merch had her name spelt either way on different items, i.e. 'Muto' or 'Mutou', so I think there's even confusion among whoever in AKS decides this.

ANYWAYS, the reason why I've just come to this thread is to request a correction to Nozawa Rena's wiki page. It has her birthplace as Tokyo but the biog on the first page of her thread has it as Nagoya. I've just been watching her SR and she replied to someone in English that she was born in Nagoya so could someone please correct the wiki?

 

I edited it on Rena's profile, but I don't know how to take her off the "Category:Tokyo" page and add her to "Category:Nagoya" if someone else could either tell me how or edit it, that'd be much appreciated.

Edit: I saw there isn't a Nagoya category. I edited her birthplace to Aichi and she was taken off automatically.

 

That's because the categories are for prefectures and not cities. Nagoya is part of Aichi prefecture so the correct category would be Aichi.

 

Yes, I realised afterwards ^^ Thank you though

 

I have some updates for SDN48 song Ai, CHUSEYO, http://stage48.net/wiki/index.php/Ai,_Chuseyo_(Song). The music is written by "Elizabeth", which is a pseudonym for the Korean student Shin Yong-sup. The word in the title, CHUSEYO, is also a japanese loan word from the Korean word "juseyo", with the meaning Please. There might be a connection between these two facts. Source: https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/愛、チュセヨ

 

That's hard for me to do. But adding the composer shouldn't be so hard, the rest isn't important.

 

@JadeFlower Stop changing the names to wrong spellings. Thanks in advance.

The official sources are not always consistent and should not be the ultimate basis of name spellings, although even so currently every single official profile I've checked omits the extra u*.

Likewise the "ou" spelling in English suggests a wrong pronunciation, and should absolutely, never, at all, ever be used. "ei", "uu", and similar are less open to misinterpretation but it would still usually be better to drop the second vowel, unless there is good cause not too. "Getting the pronunciation correct" is not "good cause", because it doesn't.

A member basing her nickname or some brand on the extra vowel might be, e.g. Fujie Reina's use of 017 [re i(chi) na(na)] in the name of her fan club. Likewise a long history of using an alternative spelling might be cause enough, but just e.g. how a girl's name is spelled on namashashin or birthday shirts is not consistent.


*Exceptions found after the fact:
Tano Yuuka
Katō Yuuka
Ōta Yuuri
Ishida Yuumi
Tanaka Kouko


I was originally strongly against relying on the official profiles, but if that's what it takes to avoid converting the entire damned wiki to invalid wapuro romanisation...

Spoiler

Also apparently it's way easier to move pages than I thought.

 

I think it's helpful not to think of the English names (both in titles and article bodies) as romanisations but rather as spellings. They aren't intended to convey pronunciation 100% accurately (that's what the romaji and kana are for), but as symbols representing the person, same as the Kanji. In that light the official spellings should carry more weight than I was previously giving them, but they are still sometimes inconsistent (and e.g. the Sakamichi profiles don't even provide any). I'm not sure a change in official profile should automatically mean a change in wiki48 title, unless there's reason to believe that change was intentional.



Aside: Most/all of the draftees are still missing kana readings, but they're all available now on the SSK website. I added a few, I may go back and add more but it's getting late.

Further aside: Kouko is an interesting case. I think it's the only official spelling I've seen so far that still uses ou (the Mutou sisters used to, but no longer), perhaps in order to avoid confusion with Coco?

But note further down:

Since Wiki48 is primarily a resource for English-speaking international fans of 48/46G, I believe the latter method should be preferred in text, with macrons used where exact pronunciation is required.

Besides being non-standard, there are two other problems with using 'ou' specifically, one for people only familiar with English, and one for people familiar with Japanese. The former problem is that it's not immediately clear that e.g. Souda is pronounced differently from Suda. The latter problem is the one you mention, that the u may be part of the following syllable, as in Inoue, rather than marking a long vowel.

 

I don't think it matters: They sound the same to foreign ears. Outside of the pronunciation sidebar it's not about representing the hiragana accurately, it's about identifying the member the page is about. If we suddenly switch to a spelling that's barely used (as happened last month for many Sato members) then we are failing in that aim.

Yu(u)ko is probably a bad example though, there isn't a true Yuko on Wiki48, and every Yuko I'm aware of even outside of the 48 sphere is actually ゆうこ. A better example is Yuuri vs. Yuri, and there is where I would look to the official profiles. Given names are more flexible than family names.

No they don't, click those links and look at the actual page names. Plain o *far* exceeds macron o in usage, and for good reason. Wikipedia goes by external sources, or at least it's supposed to. How an editor thinks a page should be spelled, or even site policy, should take a back seat to how it's actually spelled in the source material. The equivalent here would be slavishly following the official profiles, none of which use macrons.

As for the columns in that table, note that they are labelled "romanisation", and in that context macron o is correct. But we shouldn't use strict romanisation everywhere in Wiki48, unless you want it to start looking like the English wiki's Korean ghetto (click a few links deep into any Korean history page and you'll see what I mean).

Further, linked from your link:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_name#Japanese_names_in_English_and_other_Western_languages

The rest of the section is mostly concerned with exceptions to the former generality, but none to the latter.

Anyway. I'm against macrons in titles and text because they don't add anything worth the hassle.

This should be fixed. Some of the older members don't have the newest template.

 

Guys, please stick to standards, not how the flies eat - and appropriate standards; English, especially American, has nothing to do with Japanese...

 

My recent edits of long-forgotten AKBINGO individual episode pages have showed me that the romanization issue has been around for a long time. There was even a time when Takajo was written Takajyo.
When we talked about this last time I tried to go around Wikipedia's page for Hepburn romanization. My suggestion is that we decide on one standard which is universally used and stick the Wikipedia page (or other reliable guide) in the "Help:Editing" guide and other relevant places that editors usually consult.

 

I understand why you want to generalise, but sometimes I too think that it would be better to use the Romaji spelling that the girls actually use themselves to avoid confusion. I assume there's gonna be a couple more generations to come, possibly even new sister groups, which means an insurmountable number of names, possibly similar names (we already have Yokoyama Yui twice, and a lot of same first names or family names). Because of this, I personally think it would be better to use the spelling that the members use themselves; because they probably choose a spelling that makes them stand apart from other girls with the same name or to be interesting (e.g. Cocona instead of Kokona; Homma Hinata instead of Honma). Plus, people know there are members with similar names and it could easily make people think "is this the girl I'm looking for or someone with a similar name?"

I personally think it's more important for casual fans to be able to identify the girl they're looking up rather than knowing how to pronounce their names. And as for that, we have the furigana; if that's not enough for you (as I'm aware not every fan will be able to read Japanese) we could add a romaji spelling for that right next to the furigana. I imagine that's easier than moving all the pages and possibly causing confusion.

 

But we do have furigana ("Kana") and romaji spelling in the newest infobox. We settled down with it precisely because it was a way to not name pages according to their pronunciation, while still informing in the page how it's pronunciated.

I understand what you're saying but I'm personally all in for uniformity since I see the Wiki as an impartial database. So I still think we should pick a standard, no matter how the girl herself writes it. The alternate writing could be included as redirect or/and an additional line to the name in the infobox or something that makes it stand out like that.
I don't mind agreeing on disagreeing, though - it's just a matter of what's the general preference, but we ought to pick a standard and make it clear so that there's no more confusion between editors.

 

I'm sure this conversation has been going for ages now, but why not just have the common name for the main section then the name with the macrons afterwards.

Example on the main wikipedia for Oshima Yuko "Yuko Oshima (大島 優子 Ōshima Yūko)"

Personally I find the macrons unnecessary, before I knew Japanese I had no idea what the macrons meant. Anyone who does know what they mean would probably be able to just read the hirigana anyway.

 

I agree, and that is what was being done before last month.

http://stage48.net/wiki/index.php/Muto_Tomu
http://stage48.net/wiki/index.php/Oshima_Yuko

See the sidebar below their profile pictures.

That's basically what the wiki is already doing, although in some cases there is disagreement as to what "the common name" is.

One problem is girls who have their own "unique" English spelling, ala Umeyama Cocona. We should absolutely go with that spelling rather than the one CMOS or any other standard recommends. Ideally, this decision would be made on a case by case basis, going with the official profiles when there is reason to believe the spelling is intentional, and defaulting to Traditional-Hepburn-for-Names when there isn't (e.g. when it's spelled both ways in official merch). But in practice this will never work and we should just follow the official profiles.

edit: As has been pointed out a few times here and in the 53rd single thread, unique spellings are much more common for given names than for family names. A compromise would be to always use TH4N for family names, and official profiles for given names, but that's probably too complicated.

Spoiler

Originally the biggest issue I had with using the official profiles was their use of "Mutou" for Tomu's family name, which doesn't fit the guidelines and is misleading to people unfamiliar with Japanese. (Also, it breaks the syllabic palindrome when written in Western order.) She's since changed it, but that doesn't mean the problem has gone away completely.

Spoiler

Also I have a bunch of scripts that originally used Wiki48 spelling as a sort of "standard" for how the members' names should be written in English, with a few exceptions (e.g. Cho instead of Chou Kurena), and I don't really want to modify any of that. But that shouldn't be a concern for the wiki.

 

I've noticed that in the wiki there's Tanigawa Airi (NMB48) and Tanikawa Hijiri (Team 8) who have different romanizations of their surnames even though they both have the same Kanji spellings. However they do appear to have different Hirigana spellings which correspond to the respective Romaji ones. Presumably these Hirigana spellings have been officially stated by the girls and are not errors? Google searches for each of them do show that their respective Romaji spellings appear to be consistent across each set of results.