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2nd Gen Thread Official

Discussion in 'General Nogizaka46 Discussion' started by mayuri91, Mar 13, 2017.

  1. sambelteri12

    sambelteri12 Next Girls

    Joined:
    Sep 21, 2018
    Miona is 2nd gen member with the most haters so i'm still amazed with the number she gets.
     
  2. AirbusA380

    AirbusA380 Kenkyuusei

    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2019
    Oshimen:
    Suzuki Ayane
    Having the most haters doesn't mean have the least fans ;);)
     
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  3. Aas

    Aas Kenkyuusei

    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2019
    Oshimen:
    Watanabe Miria
    I don't understand why she gets so many haters, but yeah I'd like to see other 2nd gen's member getting push
     
  4. sambelteri12

    sambelteri12 Next Girls

    Joined:
    Sep 21, 2018
    Actually i dont understand it too. Even if she got pushed, it's not her fault. It's not like she put a gun on management head and asking for a push.
     
  5. tpt13

    tpt13 Member

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2018
    Oshimen:
    horimiona
    I actually think his argument does hold some truth albeit it would have been more relevant 4-5 years ago when 2ki just started out. Now, it is all spilled milk.

    Anyways, there is no shame for Miona in losing out to Kiichan. In fact, some friendly Horikita's rivalry would be great. I personally would love to see both of my oshimen doing well (and Mizuki too but Mizuki is doing overwhelmingly well so don't need to worry about her).

    With Kiichan's unexpected popularity, if only Miona's PB had sold more, we might have got ourselves Kiichan's 2nd PB.
     
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  6. Seditious46

    Seditious46 Next Girls

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2017
    Location:
    The north star of Nija
    Oshimen:
    Higuchi Hina
    What kind of push was there? I wasn't following the group back then, so I only know about the 'big' things (like her airdrop) and I like to learn.
     
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  7. tpt13

    tpt13 Member

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2018
    Oshimen:
    horimiona
    Well, it's not like I have followed them any longer than you neither. To be fair, I think the center airdrop itself was a gigantic push in the beginning. But as we all know it caused her more damage than good because after that they made no effort to keep her at the top and instead just let her free fall.

    What I think that guy gets it right is that Miona being the only prominent 2ki (even though it is by her own merit) creates a lot of hate among the fans. I know those fans are being ridiculous and totally unreasonable but it's how it is.

    That's why I am glad to see a strong Kiichan (we really need strong Kiichan right in the beninning). Firstly, because I absolutely love Kiichan, I feel happy for her. And secondly, a more prominent Kiichan will take a lot of heat of Miona.
     
  8. baymon

    baymon Next Girls

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 2014
    Oshimen:
    Shiraishi Mai
    I wasn't the following the group at that time as well. But I think another reason she was hated was because she took centership from the most popular member, that is Maiyan...(even Maiyan didn't take it well and obviously her fans too).
    And Miona wasn't ready, she was stiff as center, and worse the PV of Baretta even portrayed her as antagonist against 1ki and Maiyan especially. Everything was done in a bad taste imo...
    Some fans can move on...but I guess some hate still lingers. Yes because till now Miona is still the only prominent 2ki members, some would argue it was because of her push.
    I do hope Kii can grow even more. It would be good if she can rival Miona.
     
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2020
  9. Seditious46

    Seditious46 Next Girls

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2017
    Location:
    The north star of Nija
    Oshimen:
    Higuchi Hina
    I don't think her airdrop should be classified as a push in any way. A push is just that gentle nudge in the back for a member to help her progress, to make the next step. Airdrops are just random experiments without a proper vision that just burden members with enormous amounts of tension and anxiety while it upsets the narrow minded part of the fandom, apparently for years. It's the total opposite of a push, and it's only because of Miona's willpower and strength that she is still in the group.
     
  10. sambelteri12

    sambelteri12 Next Girls

    Joined:
    Sep 21, 2018
    It's an airdrop. You can't help it. Every new gen get their own airdrop, and always taking from the super-top-member.
     
  11. Generic_User

    Generic_User Under Girls Stage48 Donor

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2016
    Location:
    Isulando
    Oshimen:
    The Ikuta Erika
    One still has to be 'pushed' out the airplane in order for the air drop to occur. But whatever you think it is Miona still had that jump start as a member versus the rest of her generation. I'm glad the rest are mostly caught up. Their numbers are highly similar with no one in the 60k (at least as off 2020.06.18).
     
  12. mb1619

    mb1619 Kenkyuusei

    Joined:
    Apr 17, 2014
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    It's crazy that Miona still has hate from that time nearly 7 years after the airdrop. I think the lingering hate is 3 things in one though:

    1. There hadn't been a new gen before so no-one expected the airdrop centre, by 3rd and 4th gens the fans were used to and expecting it so weren't inclined to be (as) hateful about it as for her
    2. The 3rd and 4th airdrops weren't solo member airdrops
    3. The introduction of the 2nd gen overall was really mismanaged, and to be honest they still are. I think some people misdirect hate on her for being the only 2nd gen not "done dirty" by management
     
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  13. NyanNyan's Pet

    NyanNyan's Pet Next Girls

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2016
    @tpt13 @Seditious85 I don't' know if you have but try watching all Senbatsu announcement and their Docu to again see how big it was back then to be part of Senbatsu/Fukujin, to be Center. Let's put an example. It is well known that Nanase was so frustrated during the 4th single when Akimoto came back, put in second row (Fukujin), and Naachan back to 3rd row. Imagine that, the difference between 2nd and 3rd row nowadays doesn't look too far apart but back then it was a big deal because of more exposure and all those stuff. Hori suddenly became center (not her fault) out of nowhere. How would the other members feel and how would their fans take that? She was center before Nanase and Ikuta and right after no less than Maiyan.

    That was in the past, right? Like some already did above, I'm just saying this just to give an idea of why some fans until now still hold a certain amount of "hate".

    To say they let her free fall is too much because I don't think the push stopped. Again during the early days to be in Senbatsu is really a big thing. Sure, they dropped her to UG but they still made her center during Taiyou Knock and w-center with Nakamoto during Ima,Hana. Only twice she was UG then she made her comeback. If you haven't noticed yet, she is the only center in all 2nd gen song, unlike 3rd and 4th gen. The push never stopped. Not her fault.

    Her airdrop is not a push? A gentle nudge? Isn't that a bit insulting to those senpais who have worked very hard to climb up the ladder up until that moment of the announcement? More like a slap in the face.

    Btw, this is an honest question. Why does it seem like the word 'PUSH' offensive to some folks here like it's taboo and should not be used when talking about members, members who are pushed? I don't get it. What's wrong with that? I use it not as a jab to anyone but because it happened. It's part of being an idol. Guess we define 'push' differently.

    Push equals opportunity. And many of us here share the same disappointment of how 2nd gen were treated. Not all of them got enough opportunity for whatever reason we don't know. It was never Miona's fault, that is very true. It's just the timing was so bad and only during 3rd gens arrival did they learn how to manage the 'push' properly

    Before anyone says "here comes another hater". I am one of those guys few singles back who said 'I would like to see Hori center again.' That holds true until today. Anyway, nowadays 3rd, 2nd, 1st row, as long as you're Senbatsu, there's not much difference unless you're the center. Now that Maiyan's gone, they need another member other than Asuka and Sakura for that center role. Hori center next single, I'm good with that.
     
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  14. Seditious46

    Seditious46 Next Girls

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2017
    Location:
    The north star of Nija
    Oshimen:
    Higuchi Hina
    You are describing two different things. The airdrop brought no one any good. Like I said, Miona is still around despite the airdrop, not because of it. It might be meant as a push, but in the end it did more harm than good. But no matter the outcome, other members certainly had their reasons to be upset about the choices that were made.

    What happened to Miona after her initial center, I think it's hard to judge if that was a push, the neglect of other 2nd gen members, Miona's skills or a combination thereof. I certainly am of the opinion that Miona is a powerhouse, but please correct me if there's more to it than just that.

    Furthermore, I don't mind the word 'push' and fully acknowledge its existence. There is nothing wrong with a push, I think it can be very beneficial when done right. But there are some users on this forum that use it as an excuse to belittle some members progress or popularity, and that's when I get defensive.
     
  15. NyanNyan's Pet

    NyanNyan's Pet Next Girls

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2016
    Ok, we can't agree on that one. That's fine, I get it now. At least now I know how you (and perhaps others) look at it :v:
     
  16. Seditious46

    Seditious46 Next Girls

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2017
    Location:
    The north star of Nija
    Oshimen:
    Higuchi Hina
    The words you bolded weren't the different things I meant though... But thanks for clarifying your view. :)
     
  17. Gofindnova

    Gofindnova Future Girls

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2019
    The definition of push I use in my head is something like, when management gives more exposure or opportunities to a member that is disproportionate to that member’s current success (as measured by popularity, career resume, public prestige, etc.). Of course, people disagree about what is proportionate, so people disagree whether a member is being pushed. What a member’s success “deserves” is also impossible to precisely determine, because it’s impossible to give everyone perfectly proportionate airtime. That impossibility also means pushing is necessary, and you can argue whether it’s done well or badly.

    If you don’t include “disproportionate” and just define push as giving opportunities, then a statement like “This member wasn't pushed, her popularity with fans forced management to recognize her” doesn’t make sense.

    Based on this definition, an airdrop is very much a push. You could call Hori’s airdrop a failed push or a successful push, because the intent of the push is to increase the member or group’s overall success. But the only way an airdrop is not a push is if everyone agrees the member deserved a sudden huge rise (not everyone agrees), or if management was trying to sink a member’s career by giving her center (never happened as far as I know).

    Edit: Maybe using "deserved" throughout would better than "proportionate" to emphasize that subjective judgments must be made. Otherwise I could see an argument that pushing lots and lots of Asuka is a "proportionate" response if she's most popular. However, in terms of a push being undeserved but still "good," any financially successful group tries to get a super-popular ace or aces, so even if you had a group where everyone was equal, the smart thing to do would be to push some above others.
     
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2020
  18. sambelteri12

    sambelteri12 Next Girls

    Joined:
    Sep 21, 2018
    If only the push word doesn't followed by negativity, i'm pretty sure most people will be okay with that. I mean someone clearly only using 'push' word towards Miona or Ikoma, member he hopes graduated earlier. He didn't use it towards Nanase, Yoda, Momo, Yamashita, Renka, or Endo. Why?
     
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  19. baymon

    baymon Next Girls

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 2014
    Oshimen:
    Shiraishi Mai
    Updated numbers as of 19/6/2020. Renachi has surpassed Ranze, by only a few likes though. Kii has kinda slowed down compared to Miona, but still ahead about 2.6K.
    1. Kitano Hinako - 88.8K likes, 731 comments
    2. Hori Miona - 86.17K likes, 724 comments
    3. Shinuchi Mai - 80.19K likes, 420 comments
    4. Suzuki Ayane - 79.85K likes, 726 comments
    5. Yamazaki Rena - 78K likes, 358 comments
    6. Terada Ranze - 77.997K likes, 536 comments
    7. Ito Junna - 76.84K likes, 428 comments
    8. Watanabe Miria - 71.4K likes, 363 comments
     
  20. bananaboy

    bananaboy Member

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2018
    Location:
    arita factory parlour
    didn't we already discuss it, back then? or just my fuzzy memory.
    the word just a word, it's the context that counts. you'll keep justify the word untill the eternity if you keep relate it with the bad connotation.
     

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