[GENERAL] The Sakurazaka46 / Keyakizaka46 Thread

Discussion in 'General Sakurazaka46 Discussion' started by ForrestFuller, Jun 28, 2015.

  1. Meiji Ishin

    Meiji Ishin Kenkyuusei

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    You're just wrong, to once again bring up the Hina comparison for their 25th single Nogi had 35 members participating and 840 HS slots initially by comparison for their 4th single Hina had 18 members participating and 540 HS slots initially. Those numbers aint close.
     
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2020
  2. SteCola

    SteCola Rank 81-100 (Temporary Name)

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    yeah but from Nogizaka there are members not partecipating in HS (currently all the 1ki for example, apart of the two least popular remaining from that gen), that are all strong 30/30 HS sellers. That makes much difference removing these girls from this. All Hinata girls are still doing HS even the more popular ones, and same as Keya ones (apart of Techi which stopped). So if you consider that, yeah, there's still difference but not as much as people would think.

    But yeah, I agree it makes more sense to compare their future sales with Hinatazaka's ones.
     
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2020
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  3. Meiji Ishin

    Meiji Ishin Kenkyuusei

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    Yes it is detrimental to Nogi sales but even with those members not participating Nogi still has a lot more members participating overall and more HS slots and it's big assumption that all HS slots for both groups contain the same number of people, I tend to think they don't but since we never get any official word on how many are in one I just have to make that assumption.
     
  4. Philosophy Senpai

    Philosophy Senpai Kenkyuusei

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    Now, I have to admit that what SteCola says here is not far from reality. We may disagree on many things but I can relate to what he/she says here after my current "exploration" of all past Nogi episodes/history.

    At least on this specific post I do not think he is expressing anything negative about the group (except that I totally disagree with what he said about the new group having a similar image to Nogi/Hinata: no for god's sake no! Kayaki was and needs to stay unique!).

    Keyakizaka was and still is extremely popular but has followed such a diverse course from previous Aki-P "recipes" that even right from the start any events (or landmarks) that served as the staple for the development of AKB and Nogi (senbatsu and the resulting psychological burden, internal drama, extreme new single campaigns, exclusion of unders from screen time, harsh treatment of members by the MCs and so many more) were simply out-of-the-question for the untouchable 21 and the mild and smooth Keyakitte Kakenai experience.

    In just three lines I summarized what I wanted to say regarding my own perception and conclusions of how different these sister groups are. Both were blessed with success by taking different paths (and this, at least to me, explains why the core fans of each group find it hard to understand each other). As I said before, Keyaki's way to success was based on decisions that eventually lead the group to where it is now: a dead-end that has to be removed "the hard way".
     
  5. turbogig

    turbogig Kenkyuusei

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    To sum up, Techizaka was both a gift and a curse.
    And to this day S&F remains incompetent. If anything, the recent Fuckyouwaon thing only highlighted this.
    Don't know about you guys, I choose to remain skeptical about this whole shebang.
     
  6. SteCola

    SteCola Rank 81-100 (Temporary Name)

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    When I say becoming more a group like Nogizaka or Hinatazaka I'm not saying becoming a clone of them. Of course they'll still have their trademark even if new, but their image will probably be more "idol-friendly, approachable, flexible", to do all the things that before weren't that suitable for them cause of that strong "rebellious emo" image.

    Nogizaka and Hinatazaka both have idolish cute songs, elegant songs, cool songs, even dark ones Nogi (I'm not sure about Hinata cause I don't know all their songs) and both have different kind of members... but they still have their own uniqueness and distinctive trait. Nogizaka being the "elegant / refined group", while Hinatazaka being the "joyful / light-hearted group". And this image is influenced in lot of their songs and their members attitude but never to a point that felt somehow blurring or problematic for the group.
     
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2020
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  7. too much idea

    too much idea Upcoming Girls

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    I think they'll simply go back to their 2016 style / core. The past few years they have been too trapped within the emo and dark vibe, so much that people forgot how flexible / expressive they really are
     
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  8. Conjyak

    Conjyak Kenkyuusei

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    I'm not very knowledgeable about AKB, but I think at Nogi's very beginning, Nogi's relatively frequent sembatsu (e.g. the first few weeks of Nogidoko were portrayed as "a sembatsu every week") was portrayed to be more frequent/harsh than AKB. Nogi's new single campaigns are portrayed as "extreme," I agree. I don't agree about "harsh treatment of members by MCs." In terms of harshness, I don't feel a difference between Nogidoko/Nogichuu and Keyakake, and the very first episode of Keyabingo was IMO the harshest variety segment I've seen of Sakamichi. The way I see it, the beginning of Nogi, they tried to sometimes be more "extreme" than AKB, and after a while, found their Nogi "culture" identity which is very mild and lovey-dovey (most obvious in the difference between Nogibingo 1 (AKB clone) and after Nogibingo 1 (very "Nogi culture")). Nogi's beginning was definitely under the cultural umbrella of AKB but management tried to differentiate them by being more extreme at times and then becoming very mild. When Keyaki started in 2015/2016, Nogi had already reached their mild culture a while ago. To me, that's where Keyaki's mildness that you mention comes from. Just naturally came from being a sister Sakamichi group. What I'm trying to say is, I don't think grouping AKB and Nogi (especially after they became mild) as the same recipe is precise or helpful (or else it's hard to explain how Nogi became bigger than AKB) and at least in the beginning of Keyaki (up to the first 3 singles), I don't think differentiating them from Nogi too much is accurate either. In other words, I would caution against overestimating the similarity between Nogi and AKB and overestimating the difference between Nogi and the beginnings of Keyaki (first 3 singles). You mention internal drama, but at least from the outside perspective, the perception is that the last couple years of Keyaki has had loads more internal drama than other Sakamichi groups - like on a different level, and there is also the perception that that internal drama is a major reason for the rebranding.

    Keyaki obviously is a big and successful brand, though. How to combine emo and edgy songs and variety is up to the members and management. Just like how to combine elegant and classy songs and variety (since variety is often where the loud, aggressive, and vulgar get the most attention) is an issue. Both are IMO possible if the members and management can pull it off. But don't pretend to ignore that there are Keyaki members who have always been quite cutesy. "Gambariki" is not emo nor edgy lol. You can like both the songs and the members, of course. But when people say, "I hope they don't become just another cutesy idol group," have people not noticed that there are Keyaki members that are cutesy and have always been pretty cutesy? I guess because I'm more into the variety than the music, and IMHO, the variety can be closer to the members' identities whereas the music represents more the management and producers' musical vision (with the big exception of Techi since clearly a lot of Keyaki music and Techi's artistic identity go hand-in-hand), I think each of these groups are two-sided (at least two sides). One is the music and the other is the other stuff like variety. If you like both, don't forget to know that you are liking a side of them that is not talking about getting their skirts slashed or breaking glass.
     
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2020
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  9. gish0046

    gish0046 Rank 81-100 (Temporary Name)

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    Lmao Keyaki did their Unders so dirty they actually left and formed their own group.
     
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  10. STS

    STS Kenkyuusei

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    It's not my opinion! It's their image. Try to read my comment again.
    Also I still don't understand where you see their popularity... I don't know anyone who even hear about them in Japan.
    AND STOP this discussion! I don't understand you, you don't understand me.
     
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2020
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  11. too much idea

    too much idea Upcoming Girls

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    Well in Nikkei Entertainment's Talent Survey for Female Idol Group, Keyaki have managed to rank consistently quite high into the chart in terms of public recognition

    2017, 2018, 2019, 2020. Sure they are still beneath Nogizaka46, but they are just as high as TWICE

    EDIT: Another in-depth interview worth reading, this time from Akanen
     
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2020
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  12. STS

    STS Kenkyuusei

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    Twice was seriously popular that true. TT pose was being everywhere. Tiktok, CM, every japanese youtubers try to makeup like Twice etc. Everyone know who they are. I couldn't say that about keyaki. But of course their fandom is huge! And Saimajyo was quietly popular. I never said that keyaki are unpopular underground idol group. But your representation about the group and Japanese idol girls overall is very distorted.
     
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  13. gish0046

    gish0046 Rank 81-100 (Temporary Name)

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    So Keyaki had been on Kouhaku 4 times (or was it 3?) and has sold out Tokyo Dome but no one in Japan has heard of them?

    You say no one in Japan knows Keyaki but then you say their fan base is huge? Which is it?
     
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  14. too much idea

    too much idea Upcoming Girls

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    You asked about popularity. I gave you data showing their public recognition for 4 years since I don't think "I don't know anyone who even hear about them in Japan" is a good argument to judge how popular they are
     
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  15. miwa

    miwa Kenkyuusei

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    But you said that they're a very niche group when that is not true. Nobody is saying they're crazy popular or that they're the most popular group in Japan. People here know that idol groups aren't very popular with the public. We're just objecting to you acting as if Keyaki is a niche group when it's not.
     
  16. Dill

    Dill Upcoming Girls

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    This whole discourse is becoming way too absurd lol

    @too much idea thank you for the translation, always appreciated. I found particularly interesting the part about Fukyouwaon and Keyaki kanji. We all struggled with that one lol

    Hopefully, they'll be able to hold the concert in October. It would be a shame if it had to be postponed and the girls, Keyaki itself, deserves a live farewell, even though having one online may be the safest choice.
     
  17. too much idea

    too much idea Upcoming Girls

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    Oh that wasn't me or WTS, that was done by krymsun00!
     
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  18. Iamyoung

    Iamyoung Rank 81-100 (Temporary Name)

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    'Unpopular underground idol group'? OK. I guess there is nothing more to say. I wonder if you really know 48/46 groups. There was literally a survey, on TV and online, where the public just kept mentioning keyaki's name. Forget abt Saimajo. Fukyouwaon was voted amongst the top 10 to be one of the strongest song of the Era, and it wasn't by fans. It was by the public. Ask anyone on the street in Japan abt keyaki and I am sure about 5 out of 12 will know them. I mean the group has been in Kouhaku ever since they debuted, so it is possible, since it's literally popular and successful groups that perform there. We are not saying everyone knows them but they are totally known since it's one of the household idol group in Japan.
     
  19. ajma93632

    ajma93632 Kenkyuusei

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    Well, I just want to say that (after reading the Koike interview, the document about documentary ) I think mngmt should provide all the members some therapy sessions, the Keyaki experience has clearly damaged them, I don't want to keep talking about who's the responsible here because in the end it seems that is everyone who didn't stop that environment since the beginning. So it's better to focus in the solution, after hearing 10gatsu no pool (and assuming that was going to be the A-side originally) I think that what's going to be the new start of Keyaki, but since Techi didn't feel comfortable centering the song she decided to stay away whiche lead to her retirement.
    Honestly I don't think all the remaining 13 1ki members will go to the new group, I think some of them will graduate because they wouldn't feel confident in the new path. For that reason I think it's important to get some therapy.
    It's really sad seeing how this group and project has ended and the pain they have gone through.
    I hope they can feel better whether if they decide to keep being in the group or to graduate/retire.
     
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  20. Philosophy Senpai

    Philosophy Senpai Kenkyuusei

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    How did this group and project ended??? How??? It didn't... There was no end, but for the sake of argument let's assume you're right, so:
    It ended with a BIG BANG!
    It ended with a glorious online live, with many girls centering different song proving that they have been ALWAYS there, ready to take over the responsibility to carry Keyakizaka and remove the burden from the frail shoulders of a broken charismatic teenager, against all the myopic beliefs and narrow-mindedness of a stubborn management.
    It ended with a top last single, which I strongly believe (and hope) to become their new overture and anthem.
    It ended with 28 teary but determined faces, proclaiming with dignity that they are willing to transform, honoring their past and move forward to a new beginning.
    It ended leaving behind a legendary story, a 5-year long saga, unique for any Japanese idol-group, a story with twists, ups and downs, never-boring, never-flat, intriguing, provocative, explosive, stirring, influential and inspiring.

    P.S. As for those therapy sessions, I strongly believe that these will definitely help many Keyaki antis and a bunch of yellow-press shadow-dwellers and indeed, anybody else intoxicated with the joy coming from their futile attempts to impose misery on the greatness of the great...
     
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