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NGT48 Assault Case

Discussion in 'General NGT48 Discussion' started by Cisalpine88, Jan 9, 2019.

  1. Cisalpine88

    Cisalpine88 Next Girls

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    Blame it on the management for having never told one "fact" straight or in person, not me. You foster an environment where members and dangerous fans are close and you don't want to take responsibility for it, thinking lightly of that? Better off to just close business.
    All of these statements are based on documented actions from one of the people concerned or another, pretty much quoting them verbatim. If it were outsiders speculations it would be much longer.
    But the thing I have learned during this time is that fans don't seek explanation from the management, they want to remain comfortable in obfuscation. And when early damage control or late scapegoating (the only two things the management cared) fail, it's better to avoid and pass up.
    Hence why we got here. Not that it is any longer my concern.

    With that said, you can just ignore the thread.
    You never cared so far, you can keep on not caring. It will also spare me the effort to intervene here when it's the likes of you. I have already written enough, here and elsewhere.
     
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2021
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  2. bonjourmarlene

    bonjourmarlene Under Girls Wiki48 Editor

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    As Cisalpine88 said in his post right after yours, it seems they fed information to the guys.

    If you want, you can give them the benefit of the doubt and say they didn't mean anything bad by it and just wanted to help out these fans meet Maho without having to spend money. The problem is, these guys were known to be stalkers. I remember going through Inapooh's tweets and I was disgusted by what I saw. Videos such as hidden camera recordings of idols putting in their door lock number (pin lock instead of key), so that other stalkers could go to their house... They were also banned from pretty much every other 48 Group because other managements had caught onto their wrongdoings and valued the girls' protection over their money.

    If you want, you can take it a step further and not believe that they would have done anything of the sort. Fair enough. That being said, I don't know how much choice they're given in interacting with certain fans, but I'd want to believe security is present at handshakes for a reason. Block buttons on social media exist for a reason too. If it were me, I'd want to interact as little as possible with these guys, even if they invest money in me. It seems too dangerous a game to play. I'd rather risk losing some fans than engaging with guys with that kind of behaviour.

    Maybe they actually didn't tell them. Maybe they did and didn't mean any harm. Maybe they did and genuinely didn't know these guys were known stalkers. Besides themselves, who really knows? Unfortunately, whatever the intention was, it's turned out like this.
     
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  3. souchan48

    souchan48 Future Girls

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    innocent before proven guilty, my *ss.
    the evidence was pretty solid, and they were enough to make grounds for official legal investigation (rather than one by a pseudo-third party).

    begging one not to bring up those facts again and again is one thing and might be justified (as people might change), but pretending as if they were *uhm* victims of slandering are dishonest.
     
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  4. rayanami

    rayanami Kenkyuusei

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    Just to be clear, No one's denying that Maho was attacked, only the part where Ogiyuka was supposedly a bully, based on Reveens and Cisalpine's speculations.

    Was an official legal investigation launched to investigate if Ogiyuka was a bully? Also, read your sentence again carefully this time, slowly if necessary

    "innocent before proven guilty, my *ss.
    the evidence was pretty solid, and they were enough to make grounds for official legal investigation (rather than one by a pseudo-third party)."

    Unlike you, the investigation believes in innocent until proven guilty, that's why they launched an investigation to investigate the incident. Launching an official legal investigation only needs probable cause as evidence, not a solid one.
     
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  5. mochibuni

    mochibuni Kenkyuusei

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    Look, "innocent until proven guilty" applies for criminal cases. Public and personal opinion on Ogino is not a criminal case. You don't have to like how or why people inform their opinions on her or anyone else, but please stop trying to apply legal principle on subjective opinions. An English fan forum is not a court of law and we're not trying a criminal case here, it's unreasonable to assert we should behave as if we were. This entire thread is just discussion and speculation (and fighting), continuing to use legal principle in this way is just an attempt to shut down and deflect opinions you personally don't like.

    I think it's great to try and give correct information if someone is asking, and if you feel it's wrong it's great you explained why you think so, but citing she hasn't been found guilty in a court of law for not having a good relationship with someone isn't a correction. Sure it's a fact that a court didn't find her guilty, but she was never tried for that to begin with, or at all. Based on posting history, I'm assuming you don't like Cisalpine or at least not what they have been saying, do I need a court verdict telling me exactly that before I can form any sort of opinion about your relationship with Cisalpine? Courts don't determine personal relationships and it isn't a criminal offense for Ogino to not like someone.

    Acting on that dislike and doing something criminal is obviously a different story, but I don't think anyone is accusing her of that.

    I understand your frustrations, as well as everyone else's, and I'm sorry this bs happened to the girls. Management should have done better.
     
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  6. rayanami

    rayanami Kenkyuusei

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    Yes Personal opinion isn't a criminal case

    If the likes of Reveen and CisAlipine wants to hate Ogiyuka, for no reason, that is entirely fine, though they should just admit that they have no reason and stop pretending that their speculations are hard facts which makes their dislike for Ogiyuka somehow righteous.

    Innocent until proven guilty isn't the only thing going for Ogiyuka though, everything that the 2 presented are all assumptions/speculations, that AT BEST can be accepted as probable cause but only if Wlerin was lying about how wrong the facts the two are basing their speculations on.
     
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  7. Cisalpine88

    Cisalpine88 Next Girls

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    You are so caught up in the "Ogino bully" thing that you haven't realized that my argument has never been that, despite you continuing being under this impression for 3 weeks already.
    If all you had in your mind this whole time was this and constantly throwing Ogino into the debate, you can leave the thread. If you wanted to put her as a central figure or something you could have asked her to do or say something that was half decent or sensible when there was still time, then she would have had a reason to be one.
    As it is, we don't need another fair-weather Marshal Petain to pay homage to, so to speak.

    And on a complete different tangent, about "bullying"... In its normal form it isn't even criminally chargeable in itself, so all your invoking law specifically on that is completely meaningless talk. This is also the reason schools and workplaces, at least those that can, are left to necessarily deal internally and independently with their issues if anything...
    That also reminds me that Japan's way of dealing with bullying/harassment as a whole is stuck in the stone age and it also demonstrates all its total failings at self-cleansing or openness as a society. Asahikawa, with their school denying after all that has happened, comes to mind as a perfect example of how things devolve in all these cases.

    So, please let us not bring up unrelated things when you have nothing to add.
     
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2021
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  8. rayanami

    rayanami Kenkyuusei

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    So we're in agreement, Ogiyuka was not a bully. That's all you need to say. You can have your precious thread that serves as the only relevance to your poor Maho's entire Idol career

    Also, on the bullying in its normal form, they should still invoke innocent until proven guilty, otherwise innocent people can be setup to get expelled so it's not completely meaningless talk.
    I don't know why people insists that Innocent until proven guilty is only applicable in a legal proceeding. Oh I know why, it's because they want to insist their speculation should be treated as fact.

    As for Ogino not being the central figure here or something, Reveen doesn't seem to have any qualms about discussing his speculations here. So some people has been countering his arguments,

    Who died and made you moderator? Also, can you say the same to that guy who doesnt seem to have any qualms about discussing his speculations that involves Ogino.
     
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  9. Reveen

    Reveen Under Girls

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    For sure, Ogino being a fugly chick who would do anything for fame including consorting with a yakkai clique may not be technically illegal but it is conduct unbecoming of an idol.

    Also it is also on Imamura who had promised to crack down on the bullies and consorters months before the assault incident (and again afterwards) and it's on Yoshinori and her puppets on the AKS board who valued the cash cows over the assault victim.
     
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  10. Dragonkiller12012

    Dragonkiller12012 Kenkyuusei

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    I'm sure Maho cares very little for how her idol career is remembered. The fleeting relevance that comes with being an idol isn't the most important part of the equation, rather it's how much work you'll get after the fact. The amount of faith that the girls rumored to have bullied Maho or been partly responsible for her assault have lost with the general public will ultimately ensure her post idol career is much better than theirs.
     
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  11. mochibuni

    mochibuni Kenkyuusei

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    You can follow whatever principals you want in your personal life, it's just one that isn't enforceable or applicable outside of court when it comes to personal opinion.
    It's pointless and deflecting to continue to use it an argument where other parties aren't on the same page.

    Knet is entirely irrelevant to the conversation at hand, nor am I in idol fandom enough to really understand it well enough to know the breadth of insult you're trying to provoke me with. However I understand your intent and maybe you shouldn't stoop. This thread has enough of it already.

    ETA: To clarify, I don't think anyone here hasn't explained their pov without also explaining how they came to their conclusions. I can see where everyone's points are coming from. I'm speaking more of trying to use legal principal as if it's some kind of law that magically shuts down any conversation we don't like.
     
    Last edited: Jul 31, 2021
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  12. wlerin

    wlerin Next Girls

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    And you're still labouring under the impression that you are the only one posting here.

    In this post you do not mention bullying, but you are very obviously answering a question about why they are called bullies. And yet nothing in your surprisingly concise response even touches on the question. Loose lips, loose morals, but no sign of malice toward Maho.

    Evidence of what? The only legal investigation was into the assault, and they found nothing chargeable.

    There was no evidence beyond hearsay of any of the rest.

    Wouldn't be the first time the existence of two Mahos in the super group led to confusion.

    No right back at you. You've completely forgotten how the whole thing started. The twitter unfollowings are the original and only reason those members were singled out. After they were noticed (on day 1), 5ch went to town trying to find (or invent) dirt on those members.
    • Ayakani got the most flak just because she's incapable of keeping her mouth shut, though even then a lot of the "evidences" against her in the early days were hoaxes (again made possible by her tendency to just dump her mind whenever and wherever, cf. her photolog sequences).
    • There wasn't any such "evidence" of Marina's involvement with those fans in the early period, but like Ayakani she was the only one Maho unfollowed the night of the incident.
    • They dug up a Showroom stream Minami did the night of the incident, during which she received a text message that left her silent for an uncomfortably long period of time.
    • They cut a portion of Noe's SR with Ayakani (not Marina as you've said like 4 times already) before the reveal that made it sound like they were celebrating a manager being bullied out. But that clip was cut right after Noe talked at length about missing that manager and the atmosphere had gone sour. The duct tape skit was meant to liven things up again.
    • Yuka sent that Shinjite mail on the 12th, got unfollowed, and then got added to the list of "suspects".
    From that point on all those members' actions were interpreted through hate-coloured goggles by those desperate to find "culprits".
     
    Last edited: Jul 31, 2021
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  13. mochibuni

    mochibuni Kenkyuusei

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    You're taking what I'm saying and applying it outside the context of this thread. Did I say anything about other arguments or situations? No, I never said or implied my comment to be a standard applied everywhere; and I also never said I don't apply that legal principal elsewhere in my life. I shouldn't have to provide disclaimers when I'm posting specifically in this thread in regards to what is being said here and the history of it. The context is informed for those partaking and I've spelled out my intent twice now. And considering you're admitting you really don't know what's going on, it appears you're just arguing with me out of bad faith and derailing for the sake of a point that is, again, irrelevant within context.

    You're obviously allowed to think it's still stupid and I can also think you're being obtuse, and we should probably drop it here as we're talking past each other at this point. This thread is 80% that and I don't want to contribute more to it. :^^;:
     
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  14. Cisalpine88

    Cisalpine88 Next Girls

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    >In this post you do not mention bullying, but...
    I haven't mentioned Ogino doing the bullying in there either. For that matter, I just corrected your omission there that no harassment was received, seeing how you were and are so keen on whitewashing anything about the whole matter which would spoil your enjoyment of this group.

    Now that you mention it, someone must also explain to me how the AKS house organ reached the conclusion that "hostility between the member was at the basis behind the incident", because I must have missed out a few steps in between that weren't made public...
    https://docs.google.com/document/d/1fN7QsohZZ0_kVepNZP3EamAeUgU7w4rEG6uqMCTXDHk/

    >only legal investigation was over the assault and found nothing chargeable yadda yadda
    What is this that they found nothing chargeable about exactly?
    Let's just be clear here. Any passage of information if in between two individuals as it was described is not chargeable in itself to begin with, whatever use of it is made by the receiving party afterwards.
    More about it here: https://www.ichifuna-law.com/10922
    Besides that, there's only one instance in the Penal Code where passage of information is deemed chargeable and that is in specific cases where it's people who are medical workers, lawyers, and religious workers that are leaking out a client's confidential informations in unjustified situations.
    https://ja.wikibooks.org/wiki/刑法第134条

    So there goes the excuse equating "not sent to the prosecutor as co-principals" to clean which the management was going for; that's no answer and you really can't judge things from these outcomes only.
    For everything else, you tell me once the management asks and sees the police doc reports. The third-party committee and that ass of a civil trial, which were initiated entirely at their own whim, worked blindly on that premise above (tiptoeing around all the rest), all without owning any of these.
    Basically they were trying to "redo" police's work separately without having any of the means or materials or the opportune place, instead of working on fixing the stuff inbetween that criminal law doesn't cover as it should be expected on those situations.

    While there, let me also add just these:
    >even then a lot of evidences against her in early days were hoaxes yadda yadda
    Once again, I like the hoax where you tried to convince me that Tano didn't know what that yakkai get-together organized by one of the future assailants (Kitagawa Jo) was, when she is the very one even speaking out while at it, in replying on chat to the entire entourage of infamous NGT48 yakkai wotas present (hint, let's see how many you find: there's 5 of them all gathered at once), that she was "the first to have had the idea" for that day's party ("iidashippe"), going to reference it times and times again afterwards and beforehand in all kinds of streams.
    That one lead too, "5ch" or whoever your are blaming it on, wouldn't have found it themselves unless the first clip of a longer series and all related references were found ordinarily scouring what was the yakkais' circle's accounts, prior to their closure and deletion.

    Crooked management wasting 9 months afterwards trying to concoct any personal association between assailants and victim on that civil trial, for their scapegoating and interference purposes, only wish they had things served that easily.

    >They dug up a Showroom where Minami yadda yadda
    Who "dug" that one up, again? Oh yes, NGT48 fan friends did.
    https://archive.is/3LFjy
    Reaction or expression aside, the matter about that at the time was what notification (as per description) came in, since at 21:00 and beyond on December 8, 2018 there were surely messages already flying around (from members side, or staff side, or as it later turned out even yakkai side), by all records and testimonies, in case you are trying to construe that too as an accusation (?). If anything it was and is a legitimate question that's posed.

    The early female manager question tied in more closely with a tweet from Inaoka saying how glad he was she was gone as he couldn't stand her when trying to get close to members, if anything else. Pay more attention.

    I think we can quit it with this "muh 5ch" thing, sounds more like you are the one with your head stuck into it.

    Speaking of which, when this March they have lately renewed Ogino's profile on her Koshigaya ambassador page, they have already started scraping off from it all the references to her career during NGT48.
    Before:
    https://web.archive.org/web/2021010...ntaishi/taishi/koshigaya_mirai_oginoprof.html
    And after:
    https://www.city.koshigaya.saitama....ntaishi/taishi/koshigaya_mirai_oginoprof.html
    Why, wouldn't anyone be proud of reminding she was a "leader" of such a group?
    Anyway, even doing so, there is still zero ambassador jobs she's getting to her name in all of thse years. Oh well.


    Also, I seriously hope wlerin wasn't the one "agreeing" on a post saying "your precious thread serves as the only relevance to your poor Maho's entire Idol career", when he passed around dispensing his "blessings" to all posts here, but you can never tell timing-wise. Because other than being reprehensible, it really shows what problem and beef he has had all along coming here... :rolleyes:
     
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2024
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  15. EinhanderX

    EinhanderX Next Girls

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    Before we continue, reminder that anyone who were doxxed just because voicing his/her opinion here, in this thread, contact us, or me personally.

    I got one but its misdirected to my foster-grandpa. His shocked reaction were enough reason for me to put the sender through legal hellhole until he apologize to my gramps in Zoom since he is in another country or risk harsher punishment.

    Mind your manner and action, folks.
     
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