I don't know if we have this kind of thread already, so please delete or lock it if there already is one lurking around. I think this is my first thread on this forum since I have been here so I hope it will be a place of discussion. I know this is probably not a very nice subject to talk about but they do happen and they can happen to anyone. If it happens then we all know what the consequences are whether it's graduating, transferring, being demoted etc. I think in this thread we can talk about what type of scandal it is aswell. Anyway what do people think about lesbian scandals? I'm not just talking about between the other members, what if your kami-oshi or a girl you love had sexual or romantic relations outside of the group and they were caught with another girl who wasn't in any of the 48 groups? How would the management see it compared to a scandal with a male? Also would having a girlfriend outside of the groups be any different to having a girlfriend inside of the groups? And could they really be caught if two of the girls from the 48 groups had sexual and/or romantic relations together since they show alot of Yuri undertones anyway, so unless they literally come out and say they are in a relationship together or they say they are gay, then I don't really see how they could get caught? Would you still support the girl/s who you were originally supporting if they had this kind of scandal or not? Or even support them a great deal more because of their sexuality? When I first thought about doing this thread, these were the questions I wanted to discuss but of course other scandals should also be discussed aswell.
I will support her I like her not because of her sexuality, single, virgin etc etc..I want to support her.. I believe people are not defined by their sexuality preference (is that the correct word?) In fact, I hope my oshi to find a partner she can depend on
there is a rule for girl x boyfriend, and the punishment the consequences depend more or less on management, girl decision, how profitable girl is for the group. Girl x girl, i'm not sure there is a set rule. I assume it may depend on the fans reaction. Personaly, i don't care, it's their life.
To me sexuality is not a factor of me being a fan So if my oshi did come out as gay/bi, its kinda like nothing to me. Maybe surprising a little but thats about it.
It's great to see the fans get behind the girls no matter who they are. Sexuality is just a small part of someone and is irrelevant to someone's talent and what they do on the stage. I know most of the fans would support their girls, I wonder what the general public would think though. For me, I would support them just like I would have before I knew. It would just be seeing what the punishment for it would be I guess. But I do wonder what kind of effect it would have on the other girls, I'm sure most of the girls would be ok with it.
At first, I would be really shocked by it. Then realized that she needs the support of her fans during that time. So I would be one of her biggest supporters as she got thru this troubling part of her life.
Too bad all that really matters is the reaction and viewpoint the main wota fanbase has. And I'm sure not all of them would be okay with any of the girls having any sort of relationship. If even a suspected (no proof) or past relationship (before they joined the group) turns into a scandal/becomes a problem, do you really think a current relationship with anyone, girl or boy, would be embraced by the wota (who make up the bulk of the money flow for the group)? This all goes back once again to threads about the no-dating "rule". Most foreign fans already stated in those threads that they are okay with anything, whatever makes their oshimen happy makes them happy too. And that's fine, but all you have to do is read through the posts that expressly explain why it's important for girls not to have relationships while they're idols to understand why these scandals blow up so big in the first place. Or why they're even scandals at all. Anytime a girl has a major scandal that includes photographic proof, she seems to be treated quite badly by a lot of the fanbase, too. The public also likes to get in on that kind of stuff, vicious gossip is a favorite pasttime of many people, especially when it's about the more famous of us. "Image is everything" for an idol. Those girls who can turn it around as a joke and make fun of themselves after a period of "atonement" like Sasshi and Miichan can bounce back from it, but not all girls can do that. I'd say they're more the exception than the rule, where the rule is that the girl quits being an idol and moves on to something else. And by extension, naturally, "image is everything" for an idol group too. It negatively reflects on the 48 group as a whole when a member gets caught up in a scandal. That's bad for business. Personally I am also in the same boat with "whatever makes them happy is fine with me" but I know that's not how it works. It's just that I'm not close enough to any of the members to be significantly emotionally affected by anything they do. I imagine that's different for the people who go to see them at handshake events all the time and sink tons of money into merch and birthday committees and whatnot, though. They're interacting with and backing a member in a much more real, up close and personal way and all they want in return is honesty.
I would be okay with it, but the conservative nature of Japan surely wouldn't. Everyone knows that songs like Kinjirareta Futari or Oshibe to Meshibe to Yoru no Chouchou are just for fun and fanservice. I imagine there would be a huge public backlash from the older demographic of Japan about it. There would surely be a scandal especially from foreign fans like those from Indonesia, where a clear majority of the population is homophobic.
Without the cute virgin untouched kawaii persona which has been what has sold AKB for a long while....if the girls started to have relationships or be found to be having them....then one very important aspect of what has made and makes AKB will be lost. People then have to look at them as another girls group...and thus look at their dancing and singing in more critical sense...which isn't by professional standards very good. It is all very well to say it doesn't matter and criticise management or Japanese for frowning on relationships....but AKB only became a phenomena because of this. It would be high hypocrisy to thus round on it now.. AND there will be a significant scandals in early 2014 of a well known girl(s) who has already been subject to scandal and escaped it... however there will be video clips and explicit photos this time around. Nothing breeds carelessness like unearned success AND or the poor application of standards by management in the past...leads to inevitable repeats as people relax their caution.
Woah, look out guys, we got a regular Nostradamus over here. Either you know something through avenues you're not supposed to know things through and dropping hints on a messageboard that hardly anyone will read as a way of venting yourself of the information because you just have to tell someone or you're just bullshitting.
Perhaps I shouldn't be reviving this thread. And perhaps I shouldn't be thinking about this(I typically don't like thinking about it since it's so depressing, and I'm a fan of idols because the image, at the very least, is very happy and makes me happy), considering how depressing it is. But I have some opinions on this. I have lost a lot of my favourite idols because of scandals. Relationships or otherwise. And in my opinion, the no-dating thing is particularly heinous. I'm a fan of idols, but I've never been and never will be fond of this aspect of the idol culture. I understand why it's there, but to be honest, the reasons for it being there are rather creepy and exploitative seeming to me. Fantasizing about a celebrity is completely normal and healthy. But virginity fetishism is definitely exploitative and predatory. I also don't think that anyone should hold someone to standards that they don't hold to themselves. I know that this aspect of idol culture exist and probably won't go away. At least not in the near future. But I don't accept it. Again, I don't think I have to be accepting of this aspect of idol culture to be a fan of idols. Also, there is a big difference between the two extremes of singing and dancing, and having a contract which holds you to standards of virginity fetishism. I think that the singing and dancing of various idols is plenty good enough(not that I've ever been a great judge of pop music, or musical talent in general). And there is far more that they can offer in entertainment, whether or not they are exceptional at singing and dancing, without having to rely on having an unrealistic "pure" image. Having a variety of amateur talent is always a good thing. And again, people can be entertained by a variety of things. The members are plenty entertaining and interesting without having to uphold problematic standards. If TV shows like GameCenter CX can be majorly successful, as well as Let's Play videos, and people can become somewhat famous just by playing video games. Then the members of AKB48 and other idol groups are plenty qualified. I don't think that success has ever been mostly determined by talent. Most successful pop musicians are lucky, rather than talented. And pop music itself probably isn't the best place to look for musical talent. The members of AKB48 are talented, and more importantly, are entertaining and interesting. The success of reality TV and people on Youtube who simply share their life with people, show that people enjoy having public figures. It makes life less lonely, I suppose. Human beings are social creatures. And we're here on an internet forum, sharing our opinions publically, and feel compelled to do so, rather than keep them to ourselves. And having popular public personalities gives society itself perhaps gives life, society, and media, more anthroporphization. We naturally are drawn to other people and are interested in other people. People, particularly in some cultures, like to see themselves as "independent". But no one is truly independent. Everyone relies on each other. And we enjoy each other's company, even if it is disconnected, like being a fan of an AKB48 idol celebrity which you don't know on a personal level in real life. We're all drawn to people for various reasons, for romantic, sexual, platonic, and so forth reasons. The problem is when that becomes exploitative. For the personal gratification for a certain group of otaku, or "wota", in this instance. And a desire that isn't really reasonable to begin with. It would be best if the industry could move beyond that. It isn't fair to the idols, and it's giving credence to a very problematic way of thinking. One may think it's fair, because being a celebrity is a by default, "privileged" position in society. But I think there are many people who don't want to be famous at all for very good reason. And I don't think that being forced by your job to remain single and "virginal" is at all enviable or privileged. And I think it's a violation of Japanese labor laws, and for good reason. Ideally, AKB48 could easily continue being successful, while not holding on to such kinds of "appeal". Though I know that may not be, in reality, such an easy thing to accomplish. And may not be economically feasible, the way things are now. Though I do wonder about that. AKB48 is rather mainstream, the people who care about whether idols are single or chaste seem to be a niche minority. While most fans of AKB48 are much like fans of Kyary Pamyu Pamyu, they are casual fans who enjoy the cute image. I don't think that many would care if Kyary Pamyu Pamyu had a boyfriend or an active sexual lifestyle. Image is also import for Kyary just like AKB48, she isn't just judged on being a singer or dancer. Or some objective standard of what "good" singing is, or what "good" dancing is. You could also argue that many genres of music sell on bad singing in some way. Such as denpa music. Also, punk music got it's start in the value of self expression over talent. Though denpa music is a better comparison, since it's essentially J-pop, and similar in many ways to AKB48. Just some of my thoughts on this very distressful subject. Sorry for bumping the thread after several weeks. I though it would be worth it and okay since I'm contributing to the thread.
Personally I feels like the "no dating" consensus has less to do with niche minority's demand of the "pure" image. If the "no dating" consensus is not in place, the girls are given the freedom to date whoever they want. Naturally, the fans are surely curious over the girls' partner. Imagine the AKB48 news site being flooded by the related rumour, news or discussion. That would be a nightmare to me. Though, do note that I do not oppose or agree with the "no dating" consensus. There's simply too many factors at play for me to simply choose a side.
This subject comes up from time to time, and I've had different opinions over the course of a couple years of being a fan. I don't care since they are still idols, and they would still be a lot of fun regardless. I'm sure management would keep their relationships out of their work if allowed to date, and not make it part of how they will promote or market them. It would be something private away from what they do, than something that would be put out in the open for everyone to know about. Management would most likely want the members to censor their relationships from being too involved in their work. This is of course, if relationships were allowed...which the idol concept sort of requires them to be about their fans when they are entertaining or performing. In the west we seem to put a lot of importance on celebrity private life, but idol life is something that probably isn't compatible with private life...except with what might pertain to their 'idol personality' maybe. Just some thoughts on that.
OOT: Spoiler We should also be offended by gravures tbh, since you can get unpleasant stares just by wearing a backless swimsuit. Welp, double standards for the ~cool people overseas~ But yeah, most of the folks here are annoyingly homo/trans/biphobic. It's a bit frustrating that people literally say, "Watch out~ you'll turn lesbian if you watch that AKB48 thing too much~" Funny thing is, I'm bisexual. And I am attracted to these girls by some degree, so jokes on them. Anyway, if a girl is queer, I would definitely support her (mostly because it gives hope that queer people can be idols too? lol ). If she got caught however, I would be inclined to hope that she'll graduate and continue her career solo, or at least as a duo with her lover. As much as I think the jourei ruins idols, I also think it's quite necessary-- there's a public image at stake here. My stance is that the girls can date -- who am I to tell them what to do or who to like -- but please keep it a secret. It'll be ugly when the media gets information about the lover and what the two are doing privately, and it'll get even uglier if they break up.
I have always found the no dating rule interesting. Like others have said, it is hard to take sides. I am speaking as a female fan with no romantic or sexual interest in any of the members. On one hand, the rule makes things simple, in a way. I have no interest in knowing about a celebrity's romantic relationships. With this rule in place, I don't have to hear about it. It also saves the girls from, for example, accidentally becoming pregnant and having to leave the group. But don't they have to leave the group anyway sometimes if they are found to be dating? And I am sure pregnancy cases would be much less common than the amount of girls who have had to leave due to a scandal. Also, it just doesn't seem fair. Many of the girls are adults by the time they leave and have no relationship experience when they are as old as 22-27. That can be scary. Perhaps there can be an age limit. For example, once you become an official adult (20) you can start dating? I think the results of the last sousenkyo prove that the majority of fans don't care about dating scandals. Either that or they are very quick to forgive for it. Also, from what I have observed, The relationships between Japanese entertainers hardly ever become a hot topic unless they get married and/or have a baby. When so little attention is paid to celebrity relationships in Japan, would the amount that idol fans would be exposed to the relationship status really change? I could probably tell you about the relationship status of 10 people in Hollywood who I don't care about at all, but I couldn't tell you much of anything about the relationships of most of the Japanese artists and actors I actually follow. Frankly, I find it extremely stupid that some people don't want their favorite celebrities to have a boyfriend/girlfriend because they want that person to be theirs only. They are human beings, they do not belong to you. If you actually think they do, you need help. I think shedding some things like the no dating rule might help idol groups become more mainstream and less of a niche. Among some people in Japan, idol groups are seen as 'gross' because of things like the no dating rule, some of their gravure, the stereotype of their fans... it's possible that abolishing the no dating rule would gain them more support from the general public.
Oh my goodness, that's depressing. I can't believe all the people trying to justify this blatantly unethical practice. It looks like I'm even on the wrong side of the Administrator over this issue. I am very disappointed once again in this fandom. I left the idol fandom for several years because of this toxic, unjustifiable behavior. Yes, there are different cultures, and different cultures should not be looked down upon simply for being different. And there's far too many slurs directed at people based upon a respectful interest in other cultures. I'm tired of people looking down upon Japanese culture or Asian culture, and I'm tired of being called names for my interest in, and appreciation for various aspects of Japanese culture that I enjoy. However, exploitative, unethical behavior, is exploitative, unethical behavior. America and Western nations aren't perfect, either. And no nation is perfect. But every culture has flaws, including Japanese culture. And we shouldn't excuse problematic parts of other cultures, merely out of respect for other cultures. It's also a false dichotomy to imply you can't or shouldn't be a fan of idols if you don't approve of this aspect of idol culture. There is far, far more to idols, that the extremely creepy fetishization of virginity and suppression of women's sexual agency. The virgin fetishization is only one aspect of idol culture. Being okay with the fetishization of virginity and innocence and being a fan of cuteness are very different things. And there are plenty of things to be a fan of AKB48 and what they're a part of without being a part of slut shaming, and innocence and chastity fetishizing. I would argue that part of the appeal of AKB48 is cuteness, as have many others. And that virginity fetishizing is completely creepy, disturbing, and not cute at all. I enjoy "cute girls doing cute things". That's a large part of what AKB48 is. I didn't sign up for suppressing women's sexuality. And I can be a fan of one of those things without being accepting of the other. Again, there are not only two complete extremes here. And it's dishonest to treat these things as mutually exclusive. And you can be a fan of something, without being accepting of the most pernicious and harmful aspects of it. This is the inverse of when bigots ridicule Japanese culture and fans of Japanese culture, calling Japanese people and fans of Japanese culture ethnic and racial slurs and being very closed minded. This is acting as if Japanese culture can do no wrong. Japanese culture is not perfect, even though it has many great things worth appreciating. As well it is equating idol culture with it's worst aspects. Quite frankly, I think it's disrespectful to pidgeonhole such wonderful and talented and interesting girls and women with such horrid policies. It brings the whole fandom down with shame to excuse this sort of behavior. Another part of "Japanese" and "idol" is "U-15" gravure idols. Sexualized, extremely underage girls, long before they are able to consent to sex. It isn't innocent, it isn't a platonic appreciation for children. It is sexual. It is often outright pedophilia. No "ephebophilia" or any kind of excuse(not that ephebophilia is better, young teens can't consent to sex, either). And it is wrong. No amount of 'cultural difference' excuses this. There are better defenses of some of the creepiest and most immoral things in the anime, manga, and Japanese video game industry. The Japanese video game industry often only has a fraction of the creepiness that the idol industry manages, and gets huge flak for it. I cannot talk about Japanese RPGs today, without people complaining about what's happened. And it's all because, it resembles what's been going on in the idol industry, far too longer. And those people are legitimately bigoted. Often unable to accept things about Japanese anime and manga and video games that are completely fine and not problematic at all. But this is not one of those cases. This is legitimately creepy and harmful, even to some of the biggest of Japanophiles. Fetishizing little girls and virginity and innocence is not okay. And no, American and Western culture is not better and I do not look down upon Japanese culture. I have been harassed online for years because of my appreciation for Japanese culture. The adoration for machismo and violence and guns in America is horrid. It is absolutely ridiculous how people look down upon Japanese entertainment, when American entertainment is obsessed with muscles and gunbros. Also, it looks like this isn't a dual-gender thing. As HoneyRoastedPeanuts has so sadly put this, boy band groups are not held to this standard. And saying that "you want guys to date"(why?), and that "purity in men is pointless"(why?). Thus, it is simply sexism. Men are not held to these ridiculous, unrealistic, and sexually suppressing standards. It doesn't matter that they signed up for this, the very premise is degrading to women. Also, many of these girls signed up for this before they understood what they were getting into. Some empathy for the innocence of children would be appreciated. Speaking of which, for how much many here consider themselves such caring fans of these idols, I see a disconcerting lack of empathy for them and their lives. Another disappointing thing, even people who manage to say that the no dating rule is wrong, manage to say extremely sexist things. And often don't manage to realize how deeply sexist and problematic this is. Slut shaming Aya Hirano and calling her "sloppy fourths", really? Really now? No, it is not okay to sexualize children. No, it is not okay to sexualize innocence. No, it is not okay to slut shame women who have healthy, active sexual lifestyles. No, it is not okay to be entitled to the virginity of celebrities you're a "fan" of. No, it is not more okay for men to have multiple sexual partners than women. No, it is not okay to fetishize "purity" in girls or women. No, it is not okay to have double standards between men and women in terms of sex and dating. It's not only sexist, it's predatory.
Any relationships are against the rules, being with a male or a female. With Sasshi ranking at #1 at the Election and Shimarena/Shiokichi returning to NMB by fan vote I fell like most of the Wotas don't actually care about scandals. I don't think a homossexual relationship would be different. Takita Kayoko left implied she was bissexual and most of the Wotas didn't care, for example. Media would surely make a big fuss about it, as usual (Again, being a heteressexual or homossexual relationship). And Japan is a conservative country/Earth is a conservative planet (especially about this kind of topic), so the member would receive more criticism than the usual (sexism + homophobia). But like I said, I don't think many Wotas would be upset about it. Anyway, personal opinion: I absolutely don't care about scandals. Whatever if it's with a male or a female. My respect/admiration for the member will absolutely don't change (And some members that I like were caught on scandals, so this isn't a speculation haha). But it's a contract that they sign, so I understand when the members are "punished". For me the "love ban" rule wouldn't exist (And I think it's a really sexist thing, to be honest (And it's a trade with the Devil, but okay lol)), but since it does (and considering that they joined the group knowing about this) it has to be followed [worried]
Well we are foreign fans mainly on here, we don't have a say where our purchasing power makes a difference. Also not to mention that even though their are people who don't want the rule, they're not part of the major portion of the fanbase which holds the group up located in Japan. Most of everyone enjoys the group from a distance on here because of our individual circumstances, so while there are points we are all quite aware of, we sort of cope/deal/adjust with it in our own ways since we have no control over it whatsoever. So criticizing powerless people who are supportive fans will just make everyone miserable in the end, since they aren't able to communicate directly with the group like those over in Japan. Personally, while I know I'm against it at it's core, I sort of try to see what can be made positive about it from a standpoint of an idol being some sort of ideal or concept. I would say there is much more to the group than the dating rule if you take the point of view of the idols themselves, and what it's like to be one, but I know that's not the point of all this. According to Aki-P, it's to protect the girls and that being a member is something temporary until you want to move on into having a normal life. So from his perspective, it has more to do with having a life about yourself and sharing it with others, as the members do with each other and fans, until they are ready to move on to something even more personal. To look at this from another angle.
@Tsurupettan, I get where you're coming from, I really do. It's disgusting that male idols can get away with this more easily than their female counterparts; it's also pretty problematic that one of the terms of employment is to defy the employees the right of falling in love and continuing with a romantic relationship; and excusing all these just to please bigoted men that won't support "unpure" women (which is ridiculous since most of the times men are the ones that aim to make girls "unpure"?) is downright wrong. However, I think that even if the rule is not a formal one, it will undoubtedly be an unwritten rule for the girls, simply because they're a business. Putting purity and delusional fans aside, a relationship that's watched by the whole public tend to turn ugly-- Sasshi's boyfriend deliberately sent the photos to Bunshun, and there was a KPop idol, Ailee, whose ex-boyfriend sent the media nudes of her. Not to mention the real intention of their boy/girlfriends as well-- are you really dating that idol because you care about them, or do you just want to boast that you "scored" a celebrity? If the significant other is not famous, s/he could crack under the pressure of the media and do things that might be regrettable in the future. I think most wotas (at least, from what I've seen) do not feel "betrayed" by their oshimen if she does date. Ayarin managed to have petitions signed so that she'll be accepted back to AKB48; from one of AKB48 documentaries, Yuttan's fans are screaming 'We still support you! Ganbatte!' when she bid her final farewell; Miichan got to be captain (singing Seijun Philoshophy when she's assumed to be not "seijun"); and Sasshi won the election. I'd like to think that most of the fandom are not so insane and delusional that they'll feel deep anguish when a celebrity (that's most probably don't remember you) chooses another person instead of you. Anyway, my point is that I think idols should do their very best to keep their relationships secrets (or to be safe, not engage in one at all) because they're more vulnerable to humiliation than normal girls. They're under the media's watch almost all the time and people judge them and base opinions on what the media paint them as, so it's best to just keep hush hush about things that could backfire and hurt your careers.
Just wondering since the OP was asking about lesbian scandals, how do reporters prove a girl-on-girl scandal true besides secretly filming their bedrooms anyway? Unlike with us men, the girls can do lot of things with each others under the "skinship" excuses, from hugging, kissing to staying overnight on the same bed (while fans dreaming about ships)
