Stage48 Wiki - Organization & Discussion

Personally, my method of romanisation would be "nm" as well, but the current official profile pages and SNS profiles all use "mm".

I'd suggest putting "Honma" in brackets or italicised or something to emphasise that it's the romanisation of choice, but is not the official romanisation.

 

Just to be clear, I'm not against including Honma on the wiki as a guide for pronunciation. (I myself use the revised Hepburn on my posts most of the time for this end.)

That said, some of the reasons you mentioned, on the other hand, are arguable, honestly. But that's not the point.

 

You get that I'm okay including Honma on the wiki, right? Well, I don't really want to extend this, because I think it will not add much for the wiki's issue, but since I'm not likely to escape this, I'm going to write a one-time response anyway. We can continue this via PM as you've suggested if you think it's necessary. I have no problem at all.

Spoiler

We are mixing up things. One thing is how a piece of Japanese information must be presented and another one is this talk about pronunciation. There are plenty of information that is not properly translated and spread like fire on the internet, from a single twitter post, through some fan blogs and sites. So, I wouldn't really rely on the amount of results from Google Search to back your argument if I were you. The amount of wrong information may be brought up along with the result of these searches. An actual disservice is to help spreading misinformation. Nevertheless, if you search for this particular NGT member, surprisingly, her official name returns more results:

"homma hinata" 18,700
"honma hinata" 13,300

"hinata homma" 9,000
"hinata honma" 5,210

About romanization and official names:
You call the traditional Hepburn antiquated, but although it was reformed more than half a century ago, systems of romanization other than the Modified Hepburn are largely in use even today in Japan, from names of cities, train stations and even in famous newspapers like The Asahi Shimbun. It's not just a management thing. Changing all these names would take a lot of effort. I don't even know if it is worth it or if there is a plan for unifying the writings. Until then, you'll just have to accept that you will occasionally run into a romanization that is not your favorite one. Imagine if we had to change NMB48 to NNB48 just because someone thinks Namba should be written Nanba. This is the main point, imo.

Remember that guy who recorded Shekarashika! with HKT48? His name is 綾小路翔 (Ayanokōji Shō) but it is written Ayanocozey Show. It's the spelling he has chosen to use and we just have to respect his choice.

This is not a very good argument because the input method on keyboard and romanization are two different things. Otherwise, we would be allowed to write つづく as TUDUKU and しゃべる as SHABERU, SYABERU or SHILYABERU, because, gues what, all typings work.

Even though I never said mma was a good romanization, I don't really think it can be a problem, save for some unwary beginners, because I'm almost certain that there doesn't exist any word in Japanese with っま in this order, so that every time you see mma, you would consider it being んま. Now, if you know any example of words containing っま, let me know, please.

And even the double consonants rule has exceptions, like in this words:

こっち: kotchi (not kocchi) – this way
抹茶（まっちゃ）: matcha (not maccha)

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hepburn_romanization#Long_consonants
which means maybe, juuust maybe, Maeda Atsuko's nickname on the Wiki isn't really in accord with Hepburn.

Extra information:
If we have a table where ほ → ho, ん → n and ま → ma, we can simply write honma /hon·ma/. But if we go for the pronunciation, it sounds more like M than N, and it would be written homma /hom·ma/. However, the Japanese pronunciation is actually neither n nor m of, let's say, English. We don't really put the tongue behind the upper teeth to make N nor shut the lips to make M. If you pay attention at a Japanese speaking, it's more like /hõ·ma/ like in some Latin languages, with the mouth slightly open and the tongue not touching anywhere, even before M. And sometimes ん is pronounced by itself, which ends up similar to /ŋ/. So none of the romanizations above is perfect.

 

There was no "revert dance". You added a second romanisation and a note about one being "official", neither of which make sense in that part of the page. I initially changed it to read just "Honma Hinata", figuring this would be a harmless concession to your quibbling. However, after reviewing several other cases on the Wiki (e.g. Kawagoe Saaya) where Traditional Hepburn was clearly in use, I concluded I'd made the wrong decision and changed it back to Homma. Humbucker came in the middle of that and tried to apply the same fix, then reverted his edit when he realised I'd already done so.

Far from "not saying anything", I wrote brief explanations of my actions on the wiki edit logs, as well as posted here asking for feedback on which of the two versions of Hepburn romanisation we should use in the Romaji section.

I do, it's nonsensical. Or did you want to include Kunrei-shiki as well?

Only correctness matters, but while we're on the subject:

Google Ngrams is vastly more reliable than Google search, as the long tail of the latter is flooded with junk websites and duplicated pages.

That's true, but most of the time foreign "mma" becomes ンマ: ジレンマ, コンマ, ヤンマ, サンマー etc.
Likewise "mmo": マンモス, アンモニア, ハンモック, etc. Same for the other three.

ッマ is far more often used to render other consonant clusters ending with m, e.g. -km-, -tm-, -dm-. e.g. トーッマン・プラー / トードマンプラー (Although I suspect the actual pronunciation is identical to ンマ.)

And only there. Like hiragana ー and various other emphatic uses of っ, the combination っま isn't normally allowed and doesn't occur in dictionaries.

Seems to me that this is the most relevant argument you've made so far as to what the wiki should use.
The only problem is that it's also wrong.
https://files.catbox.moe/ctmzrs.webm
The sound is much closer to "mm" than "nm", especially than the "nm" in "conman" or similar. This is why the original Hepburn system wrote ん as m before labial consonants.


------------

In conclusion, both "Honma" and "Homma" are equally correct (and incorrect). A native Japanese speaker would hear them as the same sound, maybe just with a slight accent.

However, since we need to choose one, and because 1) the wiki already uses Traditional Hepburn in the Romaji section, and 2) the official names will mostly follow Traditional Hepburn (because that is the national requirement for passports), I think it will both require less work and be less confusing for future editors if we settle on that instead of any of the alternatives.

That means: mm instead of nm, aa instead of ā, and ee instead of ē.

 

@ootamudkip For religion title, I never found someone has title on it (Eg. Hj. and of course no one right now who gets Almh., both for Moslem). While for christian, some of them show their baptist name (eg. "Crescentia" Shania Junianatha), I don't know for another (aside Shanju and Desy). For tradition(al) title name, If she got it from birth, it'll be like "Nys." Ratu Rafa.

Conclution: I think, it should be placed on the other name while her history why she got that title is placed on trivia section. So, you can know how she (example: Melody N.L. S.P) got her title (S.P.) *I forget where she was going to college*. But, I still need recaps from people aside from Wikipedia to make it happen.

 

so, I tried to edit this http://stage48.net/wiki/index.php/Number_of_members
I gave up on the overview

 

Hey, just figured I'd tell you I moved the Izone members under "Transferred" in their 48 Team pages, with a different format than other members and added a note that they are expected to comeback. Also, on AKB and HKT's members pages I unlisted them from their 48 teams and put them as "Now part of IZONE". I think this makes a easier read without many "(Izone)" notes besides the members names in lists

 

I'm not sure if anyone else has this but this pops up on all the pages on wiki for me

I have not made any edits so this is not my doing.

 

@Akira Maruni Harvestrainer48 the reason why SGO comes first than Team TP is that's how they are listed to AKB's site and it was actually discussed here in the thread a few pages back...

And also MUB's logo ain't showing up... How can we fix it Mr Waffle?

 

@Shinga Kurukato Okay, thank you for the information

Edit:
Need some improvisation for JKT48 Charity and JKT48 School as Ramadhan Event. Those are new pages.

 

Ok so I saw this post from DEL48's Twitter post:



So, should we consider BNK as the 2nd international SG and not SNH in the Wiki?