[GENERAL] The Sakamichi Series group thread

^ I thought we were just gonna chill and chat..

Yeah, I agree with this. The Hiragana system was formed because of Neru, no doubt about that, but Hinatazaka itself? I'm pretty sure the immediate success of Keyaki + continuing success of Nogi would've prompted management to try to form another money-making sister group down the line, even without the Hiragana bullshit (which should've been the route to go from the beginning because the Hiragana subgroup system just plained SUCKED - they had it worse than Nogi Unders). Maybe the name would've been different, the concept different, the members different, who knows but I don't doubt that a third Sakamichi sister group would've been created. So I think even if Hiragana auditions never occurred, there still would've been some auditions for a third group - just the timeline may have been different.

 

@iainus But dislikes and disagrees do not mean anything unless properly explained, so don't worry about it.

 

And I shall read from the Book of Generic, Chapter 4, Verse 20:

Personally, I never got Neru, but I am not going to deny how intriguing her short idol life was. Especially when I ponder the alternate timelines.

 

Neru's situation was pretty interesting. She joined a little later and management decided to create a whole subgroup for her. I never understood why they didn't just add her to the original group, they haven't even debuted yet. And when they did debut, they didn't add her to Silent Majority.

In my opinion Hiragana Keyaki wasn't even necessary at that point in time. Like why create a subgroup when the main group just debuted, and they weren't even treated well. It's great that they became an independent group and doing their own thing now though.

 

They created a subgroup so that they had an excuse to let her get into Keya. B/c she didn't pass the last audition, she technically wasn't a part of Keya. And if they just decided to put her into Keya without giving a good excuse, she would get backlash from other members, from Keya's fans and it would damage the group's image too. (like she cheated to pass her exam)

 

Again, nobody is denying that without Neru there would not be Hinata; but let's not act like if it's an achievement of her, and worked hard for Hinata's creation because that's not true.
So in my opinion, the "No Neru, No Hinata" is a lame argument to support the idea that she's more important to Keyaki (and now Hinata) than Nanami to Nogi.

 

But facts is facts and yours is just an opinion. If all you read was the "No Neru. No Hinata" line then you didn't understand my take very well. If you read to the third paragraph, you would understand that I used Neru and Hiragana as a lead into how she was a force in the earliest months of Keyakizaka. If you can remember the buzz around her, then you would definitely see how her introduction shaped the group from then on.

I mean there was Keyakizaka, Neru showed up, and then it was Kanji and Hiragana. That dichotomy in both group lingers today. Look at all the people lamenting the fact that Hiragana had to be subservient to Kanji all through those years. They're also glad that they now became Hinatazaka. It's gotten into the heads of the fans!

But if you want to be pedantic about it, I'll admit that "No Neru. No Hinata" is a pretty flippant statement. I know that the devil is in the details, but I still think it's a succinct way to describe her importance. To wave away the creation of Hiragana, centered around Neru, and what the effect of it had/has on Keyaki to this day seems equally flippant.

(Geez if only peopled would've accepted my mathematical proof then I wouldn't have had to write so much)

 

But why is it a problem to say that without Neru there wouldn't be Hinata? Hinata is a direct result of Hiragana Keyaki, and without Neru there wouldn't be a Hiragana. The girls in Hiragana might have auditioned for Nogi or for Keyaki's 2nd gen. Who knows if half of them would have made it in either group. Nobody is downplaying Hinatazaka by saying this. Whenever Hinatazaka has videos or articles about their history they will always mention Neru. I don't see it as shade or anything.

 

Well it implies that Neru actually had some agency in the creation of Hiragana, as if it was her idea.

Hiragana's existence was 100% a management decision. Neru didn't even know about it until it was announced on KeyaKake.

If you want to thank someone for the creation of Hiragana, thank whichever Sony suit came up with the idea in some meeting.

Personally, I think Hiragana was a terrible idea. By that I mean the idea of having a separate group within a group, not the members themselves. And I think Neru thought the same so saying "no Neru, no Hiragana" as if it's a positive thing is kind of bad even if it were true.

I also don't think Hiragana was JUST a way to sneak Neru in the group. If you watch early KeyaKake the 1st gen girls were all pretty awkward, quiet, and weird. And honestly not very charismatic. I think this made management nervous and bringing in a 2nd gen so early was a way for them to hedge their bets in case the 1st gen girls proved to be duds. Hiragana auditions were announced before SaiMajo was released IIRC. Neru was just a Trojan horse to give management an excuse to have a 2nd gen so early. Then when SaiMajo proved to be a huge hit and the rebellious "un-idol-like idols" concept took hold that's when Hiragana was pushed aside and the ALL21 concept took hold. So I attribute Hiragana less to Neru and more to management's lack of confidence in their own group.

 

OMG. LOL! I've always stated facts. Nothing implied.

Here's a definition of important: "marked by or indicative of significant worth or consequence : valuable in content or relationship" (https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/important)

I've been arguing for the 'consequence' of Neru. That her introduction was a momentous occasion with much implications for the Sakamichi series.

Was the argument about 'worth?' Ok then. I think that being a highly popular member would be worth something. Selling out HS would bring money. She sold a lot. And since she was in a smaller group her contribution was a bigger proportion to the whole. In relative terms, her contribution to Keyakizaka was larger than Nanamin's to Nogizaka.

(There's that mathematical proof again!)

 

If we have to thanks someone I'll say Neru's mom for cancelling her request or the mgmt, Nanamin contributed the same as Neru? Hell no.
A 16th times in a row fukujin and center in the last, with tens of thousands fans, hundreds of tv and drama appearances and almost 7 years being idol Vs. Neru, who only lasted 2 years, only 1 time first row and her only good ability was her face and that she contributed to hinatazaka, dude, i don't know what kind of mathematics(I'll dare to say that are some biases) are you using but, if you want to compare to one, I'll say Miona, but still compare keya vs nogi is like compare the mayonnaise with ketchup, completely useless.
That's all, stay home, wash your hands, etc.
Love and peace.

 

The context, thing is estimated within their own group not about a direct one vs another.
Neru = 2nd in keya's hierarchy(popularity; hype and buzz, selling, etc)
Nanamin = 4-5th in nogi hierarchy; debatable but one could see the bigger picture.

It's mean that as important nanamin for nogi is, at the time there are popular face: maiyan, nachan, ikuchan and (even) ikoma upfront her in pecking order--there also like kaz, manatsu, matsun, maimai, misa that respectively surround her, and dont forget asu that effortlessly stamped her important in the group post-nanamin time.

In keya, neru seems the only one that come close chasing techi by the overall acceptance(domestic fans and public).

 

Well, nanamin has being an idol for almost 7 years, compared to neru's 2 years it's a given neru will lose in term of media appearance. Nanamin also have much more solo work than neru, I think there are more people who became to know nogi through nanamin than people who became to know keyaki through neru.

Their importance for the group internal relationships are much more difficult to compare though.

We can say that "No Neru. No Hinata", but because neru is never became hinata member, so i think in this context it is more appropriate to say that "No Neru, No Hiragana". I am a big hinata fan, but honestly I think hiragana importance to keyaki as a whole are close to none; rather than being a sub group, hiragana to kanji are like different group altogether.

Neru's importance to kanji internal relationship is more debatable though. But i think even if neru never became an idol in the first place, even if there are no hiragana, keyaki will still become what we know at the time of neru's graduation, and ultimately became keyaki that we know now.

Nogi without nanamin though, will never become nogi that we know at the time of her graduation nor became nogi that we know now. In term of nogi internal relationship, two people that i think are seeing nanamin in high regard are maiyan and asuka, which says a lot.

Well, it is nothing more than my own opinion, feel free to disagree

 

Sorry for the late reply. Have to check my backlog of AKB and SKE stuff. I do feel everyone still aware of Aki-P interview on his decision for putting Hirate as center of Saimajo, so I'll exclude it.

This is what I can found on AKB:
shorturl.at/hnosw

Written on my native language and worse, the source at which this is written had no longer existed. Same with my SKE primary source, although I do still looking for another source.
Also if you notice, the author is a familiar name in the Keyakizaka fandom.

Long story short,

After the shock that is 3 grad(or 2 grad 1 withdrawal, depending on your view of it), I notice that for quite some hours after, Keya fandom were looking for answer on why it happened. What caused it.

A certain influential Keya fans outbursted in his/her tweet, blaming management for mistreatment of members and anything. It went snowball. Especially among the fans of graduated girls who is now actively campaigning for fans exodus movement.

That's the gist of it. Basically Keya management are getting No Confidence Motion from fans (Same fans they served for long with 8 great single)

The best part is actually what Tsunku wrote in his autobiography regarding AkiP. Read it. Your mind break in my responsibility.

 

That's the same argument I was debating about since the beginning. Even if a member is popular, if she's acknowledged as a top member by the group's management she hardly be considered as an important member. For the same reason I defined the importance of a member as the result of the roles she has gotten in the promotional songs (Senbatsu, Fukujin and Center)
Nanamin, until the moment she graduated was 3rd being below Ikoma (who got 6 solo centers when she was in Nogi) and Maiyan (who never was out Fukujin and got 1 solo and 1 double center).

On the other side, there was a time where Neru was 2nd in Keyaki, but that was until 2017, in the 5th single senbatsu announcement (when she became a full Kanji member), after that other member went up within the group.
I don't if it was because they let all the members to be in front row at least once but there was definitely a change of top members in Keyaki in 2018; although there's no Fukujin in Keyaki, there were certain members who were in prominent positions most of the time. And those are Yuipon and Berisa, who started to get continuous 1st row positions after 5th single annoucement (although Berisa started since the 6th single), and we can't ignore the temporary W-center position she got for Garasu promotions.
If you ask me, Yuipon is who I consider more important to Keyaki than Nanamin to Nogi, becuase she got to be in 1st row in most of the singles while getting a lot of spotlight and doing a lot for Keyaki like being when Techi couldn't for more than one A-side (something that Nanamin never did, actually I think she even rejected being center for certain singles).

 

I just skimmed through start from users cherrypicked conjyak's statement ; not through what you ppl already debating. the post is an indirect response for people that mixing things.

that could be applied in Nogi but that part is quiet missing in keya since there dynamic of fixed-center and quasi-socialist system with no clear fukujin and under. the other least popular members can also fill front row. there also technical merit because it did seem to be build based on uniformity of members that should follow the singularity of the group image and the necessity to push others(non neru) as well, which is quiet half-ass move from their mgmt. no matter how you see and how it ends up, this still a young group by duration and imo, unlike nogi, that the only clear way to estimate the importantness of other members was their relevance by popularity~selling~coverage. the intrinsic thing like where their position (the other keya top members) in line-up(not center) seems only has more weight and meaning later in the future or post-techi time where they already pick new centers.

neru still relevant as 2nd face as there like nikkei idol ranking in 2017-18, not really close but she behind techi; up until last year but her name scrapped from the list because of the graduation. this goes by saying how much do you think keya's numbers improve in the past few years, because of neru or yuipon?
i dont know myself but the clear impression neru has contributed some but significant, even with such complicated membership status and without the need for front-row regularity.

if anything they make neru as center material underutilized. this why either the execs and mgmt were both at fault because they lose such big momentum, too much focus on one variable.

yuipon and berisa is one of their important but there also sugai that is also quiet relevant as well. girl like akane is following behind. the nature of their 2nd gen like (i guess) hikaru can turn the dynamic as well

 

The link didn't seem to work for me. I guess I won't understand it even if it works? lol

Ah ok, thanks. Well, this near collapse of Keyaki wasn't something management/ownership caused in a few months. It's the consequence of years of unsustainable policy. It wouldn't be wrong for the recovery to take a corresponding amount of time.

Can you share the gist of what he said?

Yeah, Neru's position in the Keyaki formation gets brought up, but Keyaki positions clearly had some rotations going on. Nanamin has also been in the 2nd row several times, especially in the Ikoma center era. If you go by that (especially her position in the first 5 singles), then Nanamin's importance "goes down" as well. From the 6th single onward, Nogi sembatsu positions much more closely mirror handshake sales, i.e. popularity with fans. And from that single onward, Nanamin is perma-front row (other than the 13th single), so her importance "goes up." But since Keyaki positions never changed the way Nogi positions did from the 6th single, that's why one might go look at other measures.

Yeah, and since Nogi positions more closely measured fan popularity after the 6th single, to do something similar with Keyaki, we look at fan popularity of Keyaki memebers. That's where Neru's pb, again, destroys other members. So the mostly perma-front row Keyaki members other than Hirate are Risa and Yuipon. Neru's pb sold 2 times as many as Risa's (as well as Nanamin's grad pb), 2.5 times as many as Sugai's (as well as Imaizumi's), > 3 times as many as Rika's, and 4.5 times as many as Yuipon. There is no first-time pb by any Nogi member that beats Neru's.

For completion, here are fan participation results in the Keyaki No Kiseki mobile game (TBH, I don't really know how these work lol, but in any case that twitter shows rankings for different events). It looks like Neru and Risa at number 1 a lot more than other members.

There was that Crunky chocolate commercial in 2018 where Neru was basically in a "center" position with other important members. https://i.imgur.com/XMvUW4x.png So it's not just fans and that newspaper, management recognized her importance, too. Also, she was the center of the second Sakamichi AKB (first center was Hirate). Also, she was in a lot of the smallest b-side units, centered some units, centered some Hiragana songs, and had 3 solo songs (2 b-sides and 1 album). Only Imaizumi has also had solo songs, from my browsing. Even if you count Yuipon's Yuichans duos as "centers" for Yuipon, I think there are still more Neru centers + solos. Doesn't look like Risa has any unit centers.

Also, I was wrong about

Modelling is Risa's thing, but in acting, according to Wikipedia, feels like Neru had more stuff than (or at least as much stuff as) other members (other than Hirate) up to the point when she graduated. Other than 2 dramas where all 1st gen Keyaki were in(?) and Hirate's lead in a movie, Neru was the lead in a 2-episode short drama, and had a part in a Nagasaki-themed 1-episode drama. She's missing from the Zambi stage play, though.

And yeah, Neru in the 3rd row in the last single and Nanamin given center is exactly the argument I'm making against management, not a sign that Neru wasn't important and Nanamin was. My whole point is about looking at how management treats graduations and what that says about the relations between management and the graduating member. Up to right before Nanamin's graduation (was known by management), look at the importance of Nanamin to Nogizaka and then look where they placed Nanamin and at the things they gave Nanamin to do on her graduation. Up to right before Neru's graduation (was known by management), look at the importance of Neru to Keyakizaka and then look where they placed Neru and at the things they gave Neru to do on her graduation.

 

I wonder why mngmt is taking them so long to announce the three remaining surprises for 4th anniversary.

https://www.keyakizaka46.com/s/k46o/page/4th_anniversary?ima=0000

I never doubt this recovery would take amount of time. I'd never guessed it would take this long. Something about those announcements are locked due to the pandemic. They could have had something ready for this year, but I assume that policy has really messed up the planning. Last year was the result of that policy of many years.

They couldn't even be more creative by printing the documentary on DVD/BD. Why go to movie theaters to watch a documentary?

I'm torn between Y&N Brothers policy and mngmt's fuckery for the group when it comes to planning. I understand Sakamichi series is in lockdown right now due to Covid-19, but there are things you can still make even in a pandemic.

 

What's wrong with going to the movie theater to watch documentaries? It significantly enhances the experience and emotions, especially when docs are meant to be movies about their journeys. It's also a common practice to release group's docs in the theater first before releasing it in DVD/Bluray form. Mmg and members can schedule showroom, YT livestream, radio (Keyamimi) and various other things (dance practice for example) to stay connected to fans during the pandemic but I think postponing the documentary is a good decision.

 

yup, for keya it hasn't developed as defining measurement the same as nogi, to say it also little bit premature because they get halted for the 9th single. I mean yeah, if we want distinguishing members in a quick way, let's say yuipon or risa as top members compare to members like oda nana, shiori, nijika or yone(that also had brief time in the front row) but that also by contradicting the obvious importance of top members like akane, sugai and neru in an instance. That why for now judging their position isn't so much translate the relevancy except for center position.

as well the right amount of publicity she bring to the group--the publicity that arent part of : saimajo viral success, techi, and nogi's sister. Her PB success bring fair coverage to keya in local news. She also (as you said) made solo appearances on tv more than other members as well. In some coverage she also included as one of up and coming young talent, part in the group that only share with techi. yet we talk SNS aspect. she clearly bring an amount of healthy attention and interest for the group.

in some parts, I can agree with you but the differences are;

- there also a consideration (i guess this already suggested by another user as well) that Keya's mgmt isn't well prepared and getting caught up on planning. fair or not fair there the setback with Techi injuries, scandal(Shida), and then other members graduation in short amount of time that technically sort of halted the group rapid progress.

- my stance is that Neru's decision kinda unrelated with the group circumstance/mgmt fault. even if She get opposite treatment from what mgmt had failed to fulfill, I don't think it will change her existentialism narrative. it's justHer timing couldn't get any worse.

imo, if keya situation is healthy as nogi , that when we can actually sort of compare the graduation's treatment of the important members. if this kind of turmoil happens in nogi back then, like turn the clock for pre-10th single, there will be just the same sort of story i believe--with ofc, much less coverage. dare to say nanamin will get graduation center and concert if she graduate at like the 8th single?
to note nogi also didnt has that kind of celebration until 14th single with maimai. which i want to imply it is not the sole duration but there is need a proper, healthy way on the group progress and development, on their planning and stuff.
this is whyi suspect girl like zumin--not only neru-- less possible to get graduation center, as we can perceive either that too early caught them or isn't part of their mgmt(or aki-p) plan, yet, but to keep techi as long as she can dance, no matter how, without any plan B.
*in another way, this also can be read as there possibility they reject grandeur send-off ala nogi themselves, but that sound less convincing especially for zumin.